Advice columnist tells a rape victim that it was her own fault?

[snowdarkred]

I put this up on my facebook, but I'm posting it here too. This makes me sick.

I'm talking about a Dear Amy column at the Chicago Tribune that was published on November 27, 2009. A girl wrote in and.... I'm just going to copy and paste because I'm shaking with anger and I can' even type:

(The bold emphasis is mine.)

-----

Rape question a matter of consent

(Edit:Also of note is one of the headlines this ran under: Sobering Advice to Rape Victim. I'm not even kidding. This ran here. Because lame, judgmental puns are FUN, dammit!)

Dear Amy: I recently attended a frat party, got drunk and made some bad decisions.

I let a guy take me to "his" room because he promised that he wouldn't do anything I wasn't comfortable with.

Many times, I clearly said I didn't want to have sex, and he promised to my face that he wouldn't.

Then he quickly proceeded to go against what he "promised." I was shocked, and maybe being intoxicated made my reaction time a bit slow in realizing what was happening.

We were soon kicked out of the room by the guy who lived there, who was pretty angry.

I guess my question is, if I wasn't kicking and fighting him off, is it still rape?

I feel like calling it that is a bit extreme, but I haven't felt the same since it happened.

Am I a victim?



-- Victim? in Virginia

Dear Victim?: First of all, thank you. I hope your letter will be posted on college bulletin boards everywhere.

Were you a victim? Yes.

First, you were a victim of your own awful judgment. Getting drunk at a frat house is a hazardous choice for anyone to make because of the risk (some might say a likelihood) that you will engage in unwise or unwanted sexual contact.

You don't say whether the guy was also drunk. If so, his judgment was also impaired.

No matter what -- no means no. If you say no beforehand, then the sex shouldn't happen. If you say no while its happening, then the sex should stop.

According to the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network Web site (rainn.org):

"Alcohol and drugs are not an excuse -- or an alibi. The key question is still: Did you consent or not? Regardless of whether you were drunk or sober, if the sex is nonconsensual, it is rape. However, because each state has different definitions of "nonconsensual," please contact your local center or local police if you have questions about this. (If you were so drunk or drugged that you passed out and were unable to consent, it was rape. Both people must be conscious and willing participants.)"

Go to your college's health department to be tested for STDs and pregnancy. See a counselor to determine how you want to approach this. You must involve the guy in question in order to determine what happened and because he absolutely must take responsibility and face the consequences for his actions, just as you are prepared to do. He may have done this before.

----

Oh my fucking god, really? Really? I can't even begin to say how many things are wrong with this response. 'Amy' says that, yes, the girl was raped and then turned around and blamed it on her drinking. I.... This makes me want to punch 'Amy' in the face. Repeatedly. She blames the victim and then tells the girl to approach her rapist to confirm that he raped her. Because he obviously won't either deny it or try to silence her.

The 'advice' can be found HERE. Please send this woman hate mail. I'm not even kidding. I usually don't advocate that kind of action, but to say this in print to a young woman, plus all of the other women who read this....

Rape is never the victim's fault, nor is it about sex. It's about control, and for this woman to print this and call it 'advice'....

.

Comments

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

(Sorry for the repost, can't type, and still haven't coughed up for that paid account.)

This kind of thing just makes me so, so angry. I was listening to the radio over here, just a couple of days ago - to a radio station that goes out online, and all over Scotland - and there was an ad that essentially warned young women not to get drunk to reduce the risk of them getting raped.

Seriously, WTF? Being over the drink-drive limit - which is legal as long as you are not behind the wheel of the car - does not mean that the woman is responsible for the rape. It does not mean that they are setting themselves up to be raped. It does not make a rape in any way their fault.

I am almost too angry to go on, because this attitude drives me absolutely insane, but I think what makes me angriest about this is this:-

You don't say whether the guy was also drunk. If so, his judgment was also impaired.

Impaired judgement is not an excuse for rape. In every single situation, the answer to the question, "Should I still have sex with this person even after they have said that they do not want to?" is no. Every single time.

Just. W. T. F.

*hugs to you, though*

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

Repost is okay. ;)

To make my day even better, I just endured the shortest lecture I have ever heard about World War II. Apparently, the only thing that my professor could say about Hitler was that he tried to be an artist and that he wrote a book. Also, you could totally tell that he was evil because he was anti-communist. Really. *HEADDESK*

She said NOTHING about his whole "let's kill everyone who isn't German" plan beyond "He was racist". NO SHIT. I'm not even fucking kidding. She only spent half of a class on it. Add that to the fact that I read the 'advice' right before.... I'm ready to explode.

You know, this whole 'women shouldn't get drunk becuz hur hur they'll get RAPED' thing just...enrages me. Beyond. Belief. Even if--even if--a woman gets drunk, she is not to blame if some asshole decides to rape her. It's not her fault. You can't put it all on the female that SOMEONE ELSE consciously decided to violate her. It's not the victim's fault, it the rapist's fault. THEY chose to do it, THEY didn't take no for an answer, THEY committed a crime.

I found an excellent response to this article here. Of course, some of the responses are as backwards as Amy's, but I do apprieciate the number of men who point out that they've been alone with a drunk girl at a frat party and they've managed to not rape the woman.

The blame-the-victim thing is so infuriating. It's always focused on what the victim did or didn't do, not on what the rapist did. I just want to hit people who think like Amy does.

Amy, by the way, has not retracted her advice, or even admitted she was wrong. This is just.... ARRRGG. Maddening.

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

Wow, you really don't have much luck with your professors! Half a lecture on Hitler is ... well, the only thing I can really say is that it seems like your professor has some insanely efficient editing/cutting skills. Maybe he/she should go into movie-making.

And I think that if I'd had that lecture just after reading that, I'd be furious. I was so angry that even when I got home, I started ranting about pretty much everything I could to try and avoid meltdown!

I just - I'm still struggling to make any articulate response to it because I'm getting over my disbelief. I know these attitudes are pervasive and that they have been around for ages, I know that the victim's state at the time of rape is often brought into question, and I know that sometimes people don't realise they're being so ignorant because they just haven't tried to educate themselves about these kind of issues: specifically, that the victim is never, ever at fault. I think the fact that a woman is drunk when she is raped should have no bearing on the decision over whether it was rape, exactly like you say. She is the one being raped. In a courtroom situation, I don't think there should be any mention of the victim's blood alcohol level at the time of the rape: it's entirely irrelevant. And Amy's implication that if the rapist's alcohol intake was high, then somehow his responsibility for sexually assaulting a woman is lessened - I'm not sure that Amy would ever be able to re-educate herself. Those attitudes are just ridiculous.

I just hope that when I reach 50, my world view hasn't become so screwed-up that I ever assign any blame to a rape victim. I really hope that her lack of any response so far means that she's actually taking the time to realise just how very wrong her article was.

The other article you linked to was great, but when it comes to men pointing out that they individually have never slept with a girl they were alone with at a party, who was saying no and who was drunk, I get a little iffy on that. On the one hand, I love seeing men who truly believe that a rape victim holds no responsibility for being raped. On the other hand, I'm not sure men really deserve praise for not raping someone. It shouldn't be an urge they have to fight. Women don't get congratulated for not raping any intoxicated men they end up alone with. It's just a little defensive, for my liking, and not something that they should have to manage not to do.

Ah, venting about this has been helpful - the anger is just simmering now, not boiling over! Thanks for posting this.

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

I think I have bad luck with teachers in general. From the BritLit teacher who spent a class talking about Edgar Alan Poe (seriously) to that math teacher I had who was like "If the girls in this class what the boy to stop sexually harassing them, they should stop wearing tight t-shirts" to, well, tons of other cases of teacher!fail. (I was those boys' favorite target, because I stick out as being but I have a hard time defending myself emotionally, mainly due to long term emotional abuse growing up. So, yeah, victim blaming pisses me off in any case.) I ranted, I raved, I was so fucking pissed. I still am fucking pissed. Stuff like this makes me see red like nothing else.

A lot of it goes back to that whole 'women are weak/evil/here to bring men down' mentality, which is fucking bullshit. I always get confused when someone tries to explain that one to me, because if women are weak, how can they 'tempt' men into anything? Especially since men are supposed to be the 'stronger' sex. Fuck them, we give birth.

I don't think I'm ever going to be like this; I'm making a point of never turning out to be someone who victimizes someone else, in any fashion.

You're right, they don't deserve praise for not raping someone. That was poor phrasing on my part. I meant it sarcastically, but yeah, internet.

I probably won't cool down anytime soon. :( Like I said, stuff like this really sets me off, and I can keep raging for days. Years even. I'm going to start Writing Letters as soon as my finals are done (one more week to go!) in order to call her out even more for publishing this.

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

Your Brit Lit teacher and my American Gothic professor sound like they'd really get on. We had Edgar Allan Poe mentioned in just about every single seminar and lecture, even when we'd finished studying the Gothic and moved on to completely unrelated literature!

Your maths teacher sounds like a total shitbag, with no idea of respect, rights, or rational thought. I am incredibly sorry that someone made you a victim of long-term abuse, there's no excuse for it and it makes me extremely angry to think that someone I know has been put through something like that. You do seem like a very strong person, and your anger at this shows how you've managed to use your experience to form very positive views on the subject of victim-blame - i.e. it shouldn't exist - and that's not an easy thing to do! *hugs*

I didn't mean at all to criticise your wording - it's too bad the internet doesn't have inflection, LOL! It's just something that bugs me, because it's so individually defensive even if it is well-intentioned - and some of my irritation comes from the fact that I don't notice it at first. My instinct is to go, "That's nice, good on them!" and then I think and realise that I shouldn’t have that response, that it's all part of how society has instilled in everyone (including myself in some ways, despite growing up in quite a liberal family) this belief that men are stronger and women are weaker. Even though I don't believe that, there are these little attitudes that permeate my outlook just because this is still a world where men are seen as the stronger race - and I catch myself thinking things that are ingrained in me, but that I know aren't right.

Physically, women are not as fast, or as strong, and their emotions work in different ways, but that does not make us prey. Those things are not liabilities, and they certainly do not, as the theory that we are all "temptresses" implies, make us deserving of rape.

I think the thing is, if she were to issue some sort of statement - preferably with a retraction and an apology to the victim she wrongly assigned blame to - that said she realised she had made some grave errors in her judgement on printing this article, and that she obviously needed to think very hard about exactly why what she said was wrong, then I think it would be okay to back off. But as a 50 year old woman whose job is to offer advice, she really needs to make sure that she doesn't just get defensive, and that she really tries to make sure that her advice is good.

I half think that she printed the article to be controversial - that "Sobering advice for rape victim!" title makes me think she was trying to make a point. I just don’t think she had any clue how harmful making that - invalid - point could have on a girl who is a victim, and in no way of her own actions and judgement. Yes, going into a room, alone, with a guy who wants sex while you do not and are in a physically vulnerable situation, is inadvisable - but that is not a situation that should inevitably lead to rape. It is entirely the man's responsibility not to rape her. God, this makes me furious.

[glacialphoenix]

The TITLE was "Sobering advice for rape victim?!"

That's fucking insensitive. It's always unwise to get drunk, but it's insensitive on top of playing blame-the-victim, and what makes it ten times worse is that this is supposed to be 'advice'.

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

I know, right?! The thing is, that title also makes me think she was half doing it just to be a bit controversial, you know (although I still think she's just missing some vital cords between her brain and her fingers/mouth too) and that makes it worse; that she's willing to publicly place blame on a victim for the sake of a snappy headline.

And seriously: this is her job. To give advice, presumably good advice. I'm pretty sure she has failed to meet that specific criteria of her job description. And the thing is, yeah, she was drunk, and getting to a stage of durnkenness where you may not realise that a situation is becoming dangerous isn't advisable - it's also not illegal. Or rape.

Your icon fits this perfectly! :-)

[glacialphoenix]

The icon's actually me in my White Mage costume. It comes with a hammer slightly taller than I am (I'm about 162 cm.) I sincerely wished I could use it on her, and then I calmed down after venting.

I can't get over the fact that she adds that the guy's judgement may have been impaired. Yeah, it might have been, but the damn responsibility's still all his. HE committed a crime after he repeatedly reassured the girl that he wouldn't have sex with her, which pretty much sums up the whole issue for me.

(There was another poster who said that the advice column could be worse, and I agree - there are worse 'advice' columnists out there, but that doesn't excuse this particular one. I seriously hope she didn't make it worse for the poor girl.)

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

Venting does help a lot! The costume is very cool!

That bit irked me a lot too - because it was kind of like she was saying to the girl that the incident was more her fault because ,i.she had been drinking, but less his fault if he had been drinking. I don't see the logic in that. It's double standards.

You're so right, there are lots of awful advice columns around, and lots of people who have these views on rape and instinctively blame the victim - not always maliciously, just because they haven't thought about the issue beyond the general attitudes society has taught them to have - but Amy Dickinson posted her "advice" in a public forum in a way that could have been very damaging to the girl who originally asked the question, so she pretty much brought all this negative attention on herself. She shouldn't have any excuses. Hopefully the girl read the responses to the post and hasn't taken the blame on herself. :-)

And then it got worse:

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

Amy defends herself

I'm going to go throw plates at a wall now. BRB.

[glacialphoenix]

*hug*

You really have bad luck with profs, don't you?

Also, yes. People - male and female - shouldn't get drunk, because it impairs their judgement. It does increase the risk of something untoward happening to you, but her state of inebriation is irrelevant as to whether or not it counts as rape, which it most definitely does. She said no. He went ahead anyway. That's rape. End. Of. Story. His judgement was impaired? Still his fault, because he promised he wouldn't have sex with her.

(I think I'm calmer now. I read this, and I went straight into incandescent rage, and typing it helped.)

[pennylenne.livejournal.com]

EXCUSE ME!?
Okay I work with rape victims for a living.
CAN I COME TO AMERICA JUST TO PUCH A BITCH!?
SERIOUSLY!?
....

SERIOUSLY!?

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

YES. PLEASE DO. I CAN'T EVEN--I'M STILL PISSED.

[pennylenne.livejournal.com]

GOING ON MY TO DO LIST

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

DO IT DO IT DO IT. This is just--gah, I'm so mad.

[weird-fin.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm just too "nice". I don't get really anything that bad from this one, probably because I've seen way too many blunter "advice" issues on rape which do say its the female's fault, especially if she was drinking.

This, though it mentioned drinking briefly, didn't seem to lash out that much. And for me the focus was solely on whether or not the female said "no". No matter if she was inebriated or not, she had to have said yes otherwise it was rape. The fact she needed to be able to give consent was the main point that stood out for me and it answered the person's queries.

And the fact about involving the other male party, yes, it needs to be done, but it she didn't say go up to him and confront him herself. She probably should have made it clearer by saying to involve a friend, trusted person (or the police or consellor) to contact the man.

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to disagree with you. :(

I admit I'm not unbiased when it comes to blaming the victim issues (due to past experiences), but there are several things about this column that I believe legitimately mark this article as a bad call by the writer.

I'm afraid I can't offer a proper response at the moment--I just got back from a wank-fest over at ONTD_politics, where there was some definite victim blaming going on, and I'm a little wound up. I don't want to come across wrong. :(

So, better reply tomorrow. :/

[little-ozzo.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in, I know snowdarkred will have some ace points to make when she's out of exam hell, but I thought I'd just come back on a few points because this issue is one which I feel quite strongly about. (Feel free to entirely ignore!)

First of all, I don't doubt that you're extremely nice! *g* It's just that those articles which say it is the female's fault, even slightly, seem to me to defy logic and law entirely. The implication, in this instance, is that due to the alcohol the woman had consumed, she made a call that turned out to be a bad idea: she went into a room, alone, with a guy, putting herself in the position that if he did try to push her into sex, it would be difficult to fight back physically or to stop him. But she also said, repeatedly, that she did not want to have sex, and he repeatedly assured her that would not happen. And then he had sex with her anyway. Yes, she was in a vulnerable position that could have been prevented if her inhibitions hadn't been lowered by alcohol, but in no way does that give him the right to rape her. It in no way makes it her fault. There is no legal limit on how much alcohol a person is allowed to consume unless they are getting behind the wheel of a car. She did not commit a crime by drinking; he committed a crime by sexually assaulting her.

I do acknowledge that there is danger in those situations, and that these kind of things happen all too often and that is why women are advised to drink sensibly and to try to stay aware so that they don't put themselves at risk. But that risk, that left alone with a vulnerable woman, a man may rape her, is not in any way the fault of a rape victim. That risk is presented entirely by the rapist. In the same way, even without drinking, if a woman is in a situation, alone with a man, where she promises sex and then withdraws her promise suddenly, he still does not have the right to violate her body. The rape is still his fault, because he chooses to rape her. Nobody asks to be raped.

I do think that as you pointed out, Amy Dickinson has been jumped on a little regarding her advice to get the rapist involved: she never directly tells the woman to confront him herself. And she does confirm, rightly, that the woman is a victim. Unfortunately, what she also does is place blame on the victim, as though she should take responsibility for preventing her rapist's crime. She said no. The man committed a crime. The responsibility for the crime is entirely his: it shouldn't be natural that a man is a rapist and a woman's job is not to allow herself to be raped.

I hope that explains my point-of-view, and maybe makes it a little clearer why this article outrages me, and others, so much. :-)

[rengeek.livejournal.com]

This column is so badly written, I frequently skim past it whenever I sit down with my Trib. Wish it never stunk up my comics page!

Its absolutely ridiculous to blame a rape victim for their own rape.
Having said that though, I think there are certain risk factors that should have been looked at and I think that's what Amy was poorly attempting to address.
The key one is alcohol here. Excessive drinking can lead to poor decision-making, a fact the victim admits to. I can't imagine why else a guy would invite a girl up to his room during a booze party except to make his move. Clearly, she was not interested, so why did she get herself into that environment? Because alcohol makes people more pliable. That's why many a rape in the college environment involves alcohol.
In short, drink responsibily, don't leave your drink unattended and for the love of Sts. Peter and Timothy, don't go to a guy's room or any area where you're alone while intoxicated in that environment. Stay in public, preferably with friends.

All this does not excuse the rape though. The blame is still solely on Mr. Frat Boy (btw, thanks, Ask Amy, for painting all frat boys who drink as serial rapists!).

No = No.
Yes = Yes.
Yes + Booze = No.
Yes + Drugs = No.

Impaired judgement or not, he is still responsible for his actions. He knew what he was doing when he invited her up to his room even after she stated she wasn't interested. What did you think he had in mind? Video games? Blogging?

Poorly written advice and I'm certain that in the next few weeks, she'll post some reader response, maybe yours, to which she'll attempt to justify herself. My advice is to keep the vitriol down to a minimum so she can take your letter seriously.

[glacialphoenix]

What.

That makes me angry, and it is not advice. Should she have gotten drunk in the first place? No. I mean, that's always a bad idea, no matter what the situation.

But it's not her fucking fault. She said she didn't want to have sex, and that makes it rape. Incurring an increased risk of rape does not make it her fault that she was raped.

Gah. *facepalm.

And then it got worse:

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I can't give a proper reply right now; I'm pissed as all hell:

Amy defends herself

Re: And then it got worse:

[glacialphoenix]

Whaaaaaat.

Yes, it is still bloody blaming the victim! I agree that she still told the girl that it was rape, I agree that she referred the girl to a reliable authority, but the point about drinking should never have come first, the question about whether or not the guy was drinking and his judgement was impaired should never have come up, because it is fucking irrelevant!

Bad phrasing is still bad phrasing. Is it unwise to get intoxicated? Yes. Should it have been mentioned as 'firstly?' Fuck no. And if several people read it wrongly, woman? You're doing it wrong.

Re: And then it got worse:

[snowdarkred.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY. And I've read several people's letters to her, and she chose one of the less eloquent ones to print. The letter's not bad, obviously, but I know that there were some better ones sent in.

So MUCH of what she said didn't even matter. And then she pulled a version of the 'well I'm a blank, so it's okay for me to say these things because I ~understand~" Fuck that shit, she's still wrong. I just, gah, so much HATE for this woman right now.